Chinese Doctrine Layout
gamer_1001
Posted: Sep 12 2009, 05:52 AM


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Late at night...just want to put in some suggestions on Chinese doctrine.

First of all, drop the airborne...China just don't have the capability (nor the strategies) to use airborne effectively today, adding airborne doctrine is hard to make it feel "Chinese".

I would envision China's doctrine like this:


Doctrine 1: Asymmetric Warfare

A lot of studies were done about China using Asymmetric Warfare against US. The main goal is to paralyze US command and control in order to negate its superior firepower. This is done by either by Decapitation Strikes on key US targets or Electronic/Cyber Warfare.

Decapitation Strike Tree: Infiltration (Soliders and RPG teams can camo); Special Operation Forces (Elite infantry good at takeing out key targets behind enemy lines, deployed like PE Fall); DF-21 Ballistic Missile (like V1, but it is a building buster with less splash damage).

Electronic Warfare Tree: Cyber Espionage (like ultra in Brit, remember GhostNet?); Bodyguard laser defence system (a buildable structure that can provide bonus to units within an area, which reduce US shell/missile accuracy); Radio and Radar Jamming (button all vehicles in an area).


Doctrine 2: Armored Warfare

Good old Soviet favorite, tough tank backed with powerful artillery...I see you guys have the most planned out, so I'll just fill the gaps.

Mobile Artillery Tree: Fire Control Radar (give the MLRS lockdown mode for rapid fire and extended range); Laser Guided Projectiles (reduce scatter for MLRS, increase accuracy for tanks, and both have damage increase); WS-2 MLRS (I would suggest just replace this with an rocket barrage ability made by WS-2 MLRS).

Armor Assault Tree: Reactive Armor Upgrades; GBL130 Mine Dispenser (but I would suggest to replace it with the PGZ95, also known as the Type 95 AA gun due to its iconic status and to counter US airpower/elite infantry); Type 99 Main Battle Tank.


Doctrine 3: People's War

Mao's idea still lives on, and the Chinese army now relies on the support from the Chinese people to fight the "imperialists". True to Mao's strategy, this doctrine's focus is on using propaganda to unite the people, who will then slowly wear down the opponent until the time is right for a decisive strike.

Political Indoctrination Tree: For the Motherland; Propaganda War; Commissar (like Brit lieutenant with the ability to call in artillery strike and scare away enemy infantry)

Masses Mobilization Tree: Booby Traps (everyone making IDE like in the old Chinese war movies, militia start dropping them like PE); Reinforced Logistics (like in the 1940s, Chinese people resupplies the army under the guidance of the Party, regardless of the cost - resource income boost/upkeep reduction); War Economy (Chinese factories involved in the war effort - result is something like the Allied War Machine ability).


Anyway, my effort trying to fit the existing COH abilities with Chinese flavor...Cheers.

This post has been edited by gamer_1001 on Sep 13 2009, 05:53 AM
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MonkeySoldier
Posted: Sep 12 2009, 10:09 AM


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Hey gamer_1001

Thank you for your suggestions, we appreciate you put effort into making suggestions. smile.gif Feel free to suggest more! wink.gif
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Darkbladecr
Posted: Sep 12 2009, 10:18 AM


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looks interesting, the best part is the links you provided to back your statement. We will defiantly discuss internally smile.gif
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gamer_1001
Posted: Sep 13 2009, 04:42 AM


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I assume that not much people here know about Chinese Asymmetric Warfare development for the last 20 years, so I'll share some quick insights here.

I formulated the Asymmetric Warfare section based on my research from Chinese papers, and those papers did generate a buzz in US a while back. The Chinese Asymmetric Warfare is a counter developed specifically for the US, and the key point is on paralyzing/defeat the US forces by attacking few selected targets, while avoiding direct engagments. Advanced camouflage/countermeasure techniques, special operations, information warfares and precision ballistic missile strike are the preferred methods according to Chinese military theorists. If people are reading the news lately, the latest buzz in Chinese Asymmetric Warfare developement is the use of ballistic missiles to sink a carrier, which currently the Navy has no defence.

Anyway, Asymmetric Warfare, like the People's War Doctrine are unique Chinese developments. And I believe it is better to show something unique on the Chinese side rather than copy the US tactics or Soviet stereotypes. smile.gif

This post has been edited by gamer_1001 on Sep 13 2009, 04:44 AM
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Knightofammo
Posted: Sep 13 2009, 04:56 AM


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It appears we have a very educated researcher at our disposable...
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Hongjian
Posted: Oct 22 2009, 10:05 PM


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Good suggestions OP!

I have just registered on this forum to post some of my thoughts about it, if you allow me to. smile.gif

The People's War doctrine is a very fitting Idea indeed.

But I think it would be even better, if we include and strenghten the very weapon of People's War.

Namely the Militia.

If China's being attacked and the PLA has to resort to People's War, then one can consider that almost everything is lost, save the will of the people to fight and resist foreign aggression.

Thats why I think, If the player decides to choose the People's War doctrine, one shouldnt be able to use Type 96, Type 99 or any other more sophisticated equiptment and armour anymore, but has only the blood and the flesh of the brave people's militia at his disposal, to build the 'new great wall'.


Type 96 becomes unavailable.
ZBD 2000 AAFV becomes unavailable
Artillery, either build or called become Unavailable
No 100mm AT Guns.

Only mortar-teams remains as artillery option.

Instead the People's war commander should have the option to deploy squads of Militia-members from every building on the map, like the PE Fallschirmjäger, which replaces the build option at the HQ. Furthermore they should be able to hide (stealth) in cover and posesses the selective ability of shooting the Type 79 Mini-AT Rockets in a large, but inaccurate and short-ranged volley (costs Ammo) besides the ability of throwing old-type stick-grenades. Also they can be reinforced from every civilian or military building, even in enemy territory, representing that guerrilias are able to get their resources from anywhere.



(Info: The Type 79 Mini Panzerfaust can penetrate a T-72 from all directions save the front-armour, at the max-range of 50 meters with 70% hit propability. Accuracy is severely degraded when the target is moving. I was thinking along the lines of WH's grenade assault ability, but inaccurate against moving targets and lasting shorter)

This should be an appropriate skill to show, that People's War is basically a guerilla-styled doctrine.

considering that most of the resouces and stocks of newer armoured vehicles arent available, the People's War player should have access to the large divisions of older, obsolet Tanks like the upgraded
Type 59D
(T-55 copy with 105mm rifled gun and ERA).


These tanks neither have strong firepower against enemy tanks, nor thick armour, but have the valuable ability to dig themselves in as pillboxes (like british tanks) that dramatically increases their defence against all sorts of weapons and increases their own accuracy + provides the Hetzer's camo-net option.
Also they are very cheap and do not affect the unit-cap as much as any other Tank-class vehicle, so that the player should use them as mobile, redeployable turrets.

Also, since People's War is a Guerrilla doctrine, the perk of stealth for all infantry should belong to them. To differentiate them from the Asymetric Warfare Doctrine, they should have the normal optical stealth, whereas the Asymetric Warfare stealth should be some kind of GPS-disruptors, who makes soldiers invisible only to the enemy Radar.
Additionally, I think the booby-traps for buildings and points suggestion is pretty good! The Idea behind the doctrine in real life is to let the enemy pay with blood for every inch of the motherland after all, so 'scorched earth' tactics werent uncommon.
Maybe I would suggest to add the ability for soldiers and builders to quickly lay fields of light AP-mines, like PE's airdropped Mines, only laid in a smaller sized area (costs ammo).

Soldiers should be able to fire the QLT-89 50mm silent mini mortar in an rather inaccurate volley over the range of 300 meters (or smaller), exploding with a blast-radius, slightly larger than a standard grenade. Providing PLA soldiers a basic indirect fire ability, which costs ammo.




As Mao said, 'If we dont have guns and cannons. we will take them from the enemy', the Infantry units of people's war doctrine should be able to steal enemy supply, by using a ability along the lines of the PE's Vampir Armoured Communication Car. The unit in question becomes immobile and only its stealth can protect it from enemy destruction.
Also People's War builders should be able to scavenges wrecks for additional supply.

Lastly, People's War draws from the rich resource China is famous for: Manpower. So OP's suggestion of an one time Manpower income boost is quite fitting. But considering the rather 'quantity vs. quality' organisation, it would be opportune also to increase the Unit-Cap, so that the Commander can field more units.

The off map support for this docrine should be, like OP stated it before, Propaganda War and For the Motherland, beside the advocated Militia call-in and a new off-map support, called 'People's knowledge', which uncovers a piece of terrain for some time, and allows one to deploy militia squads or to support Chinese allies in multiplayer.



Generally, for the other Doctrines I would recommend that the Chinese AT-teams in both Armoured Warfare and Asymetrical Warfare should use the PF98 120mm recoilless AT rocket (3 men, one launcher), while the People's War Doctrine AT-teams are using the weaker, but more numerable Type 69 40mm RPG's (3 men, 3 launchers).



The PF-98 Team should deal more damage, but should still appear inferior to the Javelin's Top-Attack firepower (does this even work in the engine?), is unguided and cheaper.

Special Operation Forces should have standard stealth, a panzerfaust styled one-shot ability (the AT-4 styled PF-89 80mm LAW should fit in perfectly), armed with QCW-05 silenced SMG's mainly, with the option to receive a Team-Sniper armed with the QBU-88 designated marksman rifle (like the british rifle squad) and the ability to throw demo charges.
Of course they should be comparably expensive for the balance.


Are there any plans for the Infantry weapons of the PLA soldier squad?
I know they will be armed with QBZ-95 Assault Rifles respectively, but what options do they get? I propose the QBB-95 SAW as squad machine gun and
underslug grenade launchers, working like the british rifle grenade (with smoke-shell and all), only with higher fire sequence. And normal throwing grenades of course.


One last suggestion for the Armoured Warfare Doctrine:
The 'Armour Assault tree' should add one trait to the 'Reactive Armour' option, namely that also the Type 96's are upgraded to the Type 96A with arrow shaped add-on armour on the turret and ERA on the hull-front, which increases the tank's survivalbility.


Furthermore the call-in Type 99G should have slightly weaker armour than the Abrams, but possess an ability to 'blind' a single enemy with it's JD-3 Laser Defence System to prevent him firing for a short time. I'm thinking along the lines of the british Bren-gun ability to 'stun' a tank. Of course a appropriate 'pewpew-lazor' effect should be implemented.
Also the firepower also should be weaker than the Abrams, but will be balanced out by the ability to shoot gun-launched missiles with a high range. This would make a tank duel between the Type 99G and the Abrams more exciting, since one is a perfect heavy-armoured conventional assault tank like the King-Tiger, and the other more a vulnerable 'sniper'-type tank-hunter who relies more on wits and clever use of its range and 'stun'-abilities.


I think in general, the Chinese Faction should play like NOD in the CnC series. lots of low tech units as cannon-fodder and also relying on few, relative vulnerable high-tech units who are shining not with their firepower, but their abilities of stealth and disruption (especially in the 'Assymetric Warfare' Doctrine) who require wits and clever use of tactics to overcome technologiically superior enemies - like the real-world PLA.


In contrast, the Americans are more like the GDI, using heavily armoured tanks, conventional multipurpose units with lots of firepower, above average training and sophisticated high-tech units, aimed mainly at pure destruction and not at disruption like the Chinese.


Thank you for reading. smile.gif
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Knightofammo
Posted: Oct 23 2009, 12:27 AM


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almost 100% with this guy, it would add extreme diversity to CoH that no other faction (US, Brits, Germans) can possibly field.

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OnkelSam
Posted: Oct 23 2009, 08:53 AM


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Thank you for your contribution! I will go through your post in more detail, when i have the time. Just wanted to let you know, that we didn't miss it =)
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OnkelSam
Posted: Oct 23 2009, 05:17 PM


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@Hongjian
Alright, i had the time to read through your post. There are some interesting suggestions.

But i guess i have to dissapoint you with your radical "People's War" plan. This is so drastically diffrent from original CoH, that it doesn't fit for this mod. Our motivation in the end is to conserve the playstyle from vanilla Company of Heroes and take it to a modern environment.
Disableing of whole tech trees of the non-doctrinal part doesn't work with our philosophie of CoH.

However, there are some very interesting suggestions for abilities and perks, that your bring up. I will definitaly put them in the pool of ideas for our doctrine design.
The Non-Doctrinal layout is somewhat fix, and you can find it in our Press Release 3. But the doctrines themself are not designed yet. This will happen once the non-doctrinal part is ready to be tested. We will try to build them around the non-doctrinal part.
It is good to have a good choice of units, abilities, weapons, perks and ideas in general for this to choose from. So i appreciate the time you put into your write up.


QUOTE (Hongjian)


I think in general, the Chinese Faction should play like NOD in the CnC series. lots of low tech units as cannon-fodder and also relying on few, relative vulnerable high-tech units who are shining not with their firepower, but their abilities of stealth and disruption (especially in the 'Assymetric Warfare' Doctrine) who require wits and clever use of tactics to overcome technologiically superior enemies - like the real-world PLA.


In contrast, the Americans are more like the GDI, using heavily armoured tanks, conventional multipurpose units with lots of firepower, above average training and sophisticated high-tech units, aimed mainly at pure destruction and not at disruption like the Chinese.

This is pretty much what we are aiming for. In this context, some your suggestions are a good addition to our plans and will be considered.

If you have additional ideas, keep them coming =)
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Chinook
Posted: Oct 31 2009, 04:11 PM


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I think peoples war, airborne and stealth do not fit the modern Chinese army. I think the Chinese should be all about electronic warfare, cyberwarfare and anti-air. The Chinese should be all about crippling their enemy.

Think of radar or sattelite jaming that denies mini map features, cyberwarfare that denies or intercepts the opponets unit orders, air defense radars and off-map surface-to-air missiles.

Here are some links that I think can be useful for making the Chinese faction:
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/cat_eye_on_china.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...hina/index.html
http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-mil...ountry_id=China

As for command trees I think its better to have abilities or upgrades then units.
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OnkelSam
Posted: Oct 31 2009, 05:08 PM


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QUOTE (Chinook @ Oct 31 2009, 04:11 PM)
I think peoples war, airborne and stealth do not fit the modern Chinese army. I think the Chinese should be all about electronic warfare, cyberwarfare and anti-air. The Chinese should be all about crippling their enemy.

Think of radar or sattelite jaming that denies mini map features, cyberwarfare that denies or intercepts the opponets unit orders, air defense radars and off-map surface-to-air missiles.

Here are some links that I think can be useful for making the Chinese faction:
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/cat_eye_on_china.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...hina/index.html
http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-mil...ountry_id=China

As for command trees I think its better to have abilities or upgrades then units.

Thank you for the links. We will investigate them, when creating the doctrines. ...
However, the faction is designed already. If you didn'T find the links yet. watch here
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww343/O...e20-03-2009.png
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gamer_1001
Posted: Oct 31 2009, 08:49 PM


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QUOTE (Chinook @ Oct 31 2009, 04:11 PM)
I think peoples war, airborne and stealth do not fit the modern Chinese army.

Uhm...stealth fits? Chinese are THE experts on stealth because it just has so much experiences on light infantry combats/special operations, just ask any GIs that fought in Korea.

Because US has a huge firepower advantage over the Chinese during the Korean War, the Chinese army just transforms itself into an army of expert light infantries. The the standard Chinese battlefield tactic when facing Americans is to infiltrate an enemy position, surprise the enemy at point blank range, take out the command post/retreat route first, then wait for the enemy to disintergrate. See how Chinese took out the 8th Cav in Korean War and you will get a better understanding on what infiltration means to Chinese light infantry.

In the real Chinese asymmetric warfare doctrine, the decapitation strike concept is just to make this 50-years-old tactic applicatable to modern combats.

People's War cannot be outdated because it has nothing to do with tactics or weapon - it is a political theory/government policy that transforms China into a massive military-industrial complex that supports the army.

Edit: The real Chinese asymmetric warfare doctrine does not mean high tech weapon (although high-tech helps), it means negate the US firepower advantage by any cost-effective means necessary. The Chinese had already used the asymmetric warfare concepts during the Korean War when fighting the US.

This post has been edited by gamer_1001 on Oct 31 2009, 09:13 PM
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Chinook
Posted: Oct 31 2009, 10:34 PM


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I ment for making the doctrines. I think the units are well choosen.

About the peoples war, it makes no sense to me that China would resort to peoples war, atleast not in a insurgent style way. Though it is true China has a lot of paramilitary forces.

I guess I'm wrong about the stealth thing. Though I do not see how that can be put into the game. I definatly think disruption is important.
Low-tech not sure, if you compare China to Russia.

As for the doctrines:

"Their investments in cyber- and anti-satellite warfare, anti-air and anti-ship weaponry, and ballistic missiles could threaten America's primary way to project power and help allies in the Pacific - in particular, our forward air bases and carrier strike groups," said Secretary Gates.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-09-29-voa73.cfm

There's no need to argue, this is all what I wanted to say. I think I might not like the mod anyway, as it seems it stays too close to company of heroes. Anyway I'll see what it turns out to be.

Then there's one thing I forgot to ask:

What is the battlefield of this fictional war?

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gamer_1001
Posted: Oct 31 2009, 11:32 PM


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QUOTE (Chinook @ Oct 31 2009, 10:34 PM)
There's no need to argue, this is all what I wanted to say.

Not arguing mate, just to clean up some misconceptions. Guess I'm just a bit miffed by the current slew of games that made the Chinese army the Russian army of 21st century.

QUOTE
About the peoples war, it makes no sense to me that China would resort to peoples war.


Given the Chinese propaganda machine is still pretty pervasive, if the leaders want to implenment it, they could. Besides, it has nothing to do with paramilitary, it is about turning the people against the enemy and a war production boost for the army. Basicly it's an doctrine that make the army live off the people.

QUOTE
Low-tech not sure, if you compare China to Russia.


Trust me, they are still pretty much low tech...most of their weapons are the proven designs of the Cold War that is updated with commerical technologies. Even take the so call high-tech GhostNet cyberspy ring and the Bodyguard laser defence system, it is still stuffs that a university engineering student can create (but they are still extremely effective against US).

QUOTE
As for the doctrines:

"Their investments in cyber- and anti-satellite warfare, anti-air and anti-ship weaponry, and ballistic missiles could threaten America's primary way to project power and help allies in the Pacific - in particular, our forward air bases and carrier strike groups," said Secretary Gates.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-09-29-voa73.cfm


Pentagon has been making this warnings for the last decade, and it really hasn't happen yet. Besides the Chinese ground troops operating in China, the only way China could hurt US right now are the ballistic missiles armed with nuke.

QUOTE
What is the battlefield of this fictional war?


Taiwan, but I would prefer Korea.

This post has been edited by gamer_1001 on Oct 31 2009, 11:37 PM
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OnkelSam
Posted: Nov 1 2009, 12:16 AM


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QUOTE (Chinook @ Oct 31 2009, 10:34 PM)
There's no need to argue, this is all what I wanted to say. I think I might not like the mod anyway, as it seems it stays too close to company of heroes. Anyway I'll see what it turns out to be.

Then there's one thing I forgot to ask:

What is the battlefield of this fictional war?

I guess we cannot please everyone, unfortunately. You're right, the main motivation behind our concept is, to conserve the original Company of Heroes playstyle. This is the game we all love, and we want to take it to the 21th century...

The battlefield will be some part of china. We don't restrict ourself to specific areas right now, cause we focus on the Multiplayer part first. Once that works and depending on our success, we will start creating scripted missions, but this is future stuff we didn't decide yet.
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